This week I was excited to be joined by Casey Bernard, who is one half of the Very Pink Knits podcast. I have listened to this podcast for several years now and particularly enjoy the conversations that Casey and Staci have about the differences in their relationships to their knitting and the dilemma of 'process versus project' knitting.
While Casey is very much a 'project' person, in her life, work and knitting, she also speaks about the way that knitting can 'centre' her and allow her to process things while she knits. Along with many other guests, Casey also spoke about not being good at meditating, and that knitting takes a similar role in her life.
You can listen to the podcast on the player below, or scroll down to see the full transcript of our conversation.
Full Transcript
SPEAKERS
Casey Bernard, Mia Hobbs
Mia Hobbs 00:03
Hello and welcome back to series two of the Why I Knit podcast. My name is Dr Mia Hobbs and I'm a clinical psychologist who's passionate about knitting and its benefits for our mental wellbeing. Each episode I interview a different knitter about why they knit and how it benefits their mental health. This week on the podcast, I'm joined by Casey Bernard who co-presents the VeryPink Knits podcast along with Staci Perry. Hi Casey. Welcome to the podcast.
Casey Bernard 00:37
Thank you! Thanks for having me.
Mia Hobbs 00:38
I always start the podcast with asking where your relationship with knitting began. Where did yours start?
Casey Bernard 00:45
Well, I've been thinking about this since you sent me the questions. I was in graduate school in my mid 20s and then I finished and suddenly I was like, "I have all this free time!" I've always dabbled in some kind of crafty thing, and I started cross stitching and... I don't know what else I was doing. And then I started with crocheting because I knew the basic crochet chain from when I was a little kid. And then I was looking at patterns and looking at things, and I was like, "I really don't..." I had like knitting envy, I often say, because I like the finished product of knitting versus crochet. And so it came after graduate school. It came to be a thing that I could do, and something that I could pick up and put down. I have a tendency to fall asleep if I'm watching TV, so...
Mia Hobbs 01:34
I do that if I'm not knitting.
Casey Bernard 01:36
Yeah, exactly! [Laughs] Because my husband would get so mad, he would say, "You've watched the beginnings of so many great movies." [Laughs] And so knitting kept me awake on the couch. And then it just got to be a thing where now it's just part of my life.
Mia Hobbs 01:56
Yeah. And did you teach yourself?
Casey Bernard 01:58
Yes, this was pre-YouTube so...
Mia Hobbs 02:01
Yeah, same! I always say that: "Pre-YouTube" [laughs] from a... Well, my mum taught me, but when you had problems it was harder! You can't just look stuff up [laughs].
Casey Bernard 02:11
Yeah. And it took a while for me to figure out which schematic in a book worked better for me. I found there were some that showed hands and some that didn't show hands, and when I saw the hands it helped. And then my mom had knit in the past. But now I've gotten her into it again, and she's like more obsessed with it than I am. So she was there to help me, but it took her a while to kind of get going with it too. But yeah, I just pretty much taught myself through books. And then it was kind of around the time of Stitch 'N Bitch; that book came out... that was like early 2000s. Then I took a couple classes at the local yarn shop, and that's where I met Staci Perry.
Mia Hobbs 02:59
Okay, and you guys obviously host the VeryPink podcast together. Okay, so you met her through knitting?
Casey Bernard 03:07
Mm-hmm.
Mia Hobbs 03:07
She didn't teach you. Okay. What kind of things were you knitting at the beginning?
Casey Bernard 03:13
I think I was knitting scarves. So the reason I switched and I like knitting more than crochet is you can keep track of the stitches. I crocheted a scarf that was just like wonky, because I kept losing track of the number of stitches. [Laughs] So once I found knitting, I was like, "Oh, it's all there on the needle. I can keep track a little better." I think I was knitting like... you know, my friends were starting to have babies so I was making baby things. I never really enjoyed making scarves that much. I have a few that I've made, but they just take too long. I find them tedious. And then I soon started doing weird stuff like a bikini. [Laughs]
Mia Hobbs 03:59
How did that go?
Casey Bernard 04:01
It turned out really small, and I gave it to my sister-in-law who's really skinny.
Mia Hobbs 04:06
Is it usable in water?
Casey Bernard 04:08
Well, it's kind of like, you know, the 70s crocheted kind of thing.
Mia Hobbs 04:12
I always just felt like it would just stretch the minute it got wet and that would not work well for me. [Laughs]
Casey Bernard 04:22
Some yarn has elastic in it, so it kind of holds its shape. It's cotton with elastic.
Mia Hobbs 04:28
Okay. Yeah, I guess it's not like alpaca then it's just going to hit the floor, isn't it, as soon as you get out the water! [Laughs]
Casey Bernard 04:36
Yeah, I don't think you're really supposed to swim in it.
Mia Hobbs 04:38
No, it's more for like hanging out. Okay. And why do you still knit? I guess one of the reasons I contacted you is because I'm really interested from listening to your podcast, the conversations that you and Stacy have about process versus project knitter. And I think you're both quite different ends of the spectrum, maybe, in that. And I've always wondered... Stacy seems to think that she loves knitting and is a process knitter and it's almost like all knitting is equal. Whereas you seem to be more of a somebody who gets bored. [Laughs] Like you said, you don't like knitting scarves. Why do you still knit? What is it about knitting for you?
Casey Bernard 05:22
I mean, I love the finished project, obviously. And I think we've talked about this before, that I feel like my knitting time is a little bit more limited, because I don't have as much free time as she... not free time, but she has her own day. She's single, doesn't have kids, she's got the dogs and the business to run. But, you know, I have kids, I have a job, I have to cook for everybody, and so I feel like my time is limited. So I want to accomplish something, which may make me more project-oriented. I'm also just a project-oriented person, I think. In my job I worked on projects. I was just talking about this with my son last night. I could never have a job where I think about one thing for like 30 years, and I'm focused on that one topic. I need some variety. I mean, knitting is relaxing to me. I'm working on a hat right now that has taken me so long, because I just haven't had the energy. Then I'll sit down at the end of the day and I'll start knitting it, and I fall asleep! Or I'm watching TV and I'm falling asleep because I've just been really busy. But sometimes when I'm in the morning getting dressed, my husband will find me standing at the bed, just knitting a row real quick, because it just kind of like centres me. I just enjoy the rhythm of having that project going.
Mia Hobbs 06:46
Would you knit every day?
Casey Bernard 06:48
I would if I had more time. But yeah, I do at least a little tiny bit, usually. Even if it's one row.
Mia Hobbs 06:56
You said you feel like it kind of centres you or... I don't know if you said it makes you feel calmer. Do you feel like it gives you other things in terms of benefiting your mental wellbeing?
Casey Bernard 07:10
Yeah. I'm not a good meditator, and it just kind of shuts everything out, I guess, and I can just kind of focus on this thing. And I just love having the the tactile input too, with my hands. And yeah, I like having a finished project, even if I don't keep it. I think about who I'm going to give it to and it just allows my mind to kind of like work through things I'm working on, while I'm working on my knitting.
Mia Hobbs 07:43
Do you feel like the finished product benefits you? The experience of giving it to someone, or when you wear it, if someone says, "Oh, did you make your sweater?" or...
Casey Bernard 07:54
Oh, for sure! I feel really excited. I made a Christmas sweater that has a Christmas tree on it, and I'm like,"Oh, I need to wear my Christmas sweater!" It's the week I get to wear this. And now, living in Maine, I definitely get benefits from having all the hats and scarves that I have made, or cowls.
Mia Hobbs 08:12
As opposed to Texas where you were before?
Casey Bernard 08:15
Yeah. I knit some gloves for myself last year and they really are better than store-bought gloves. They are warmer. They're just better!
Mia Hobbs 08:27
Okay, so you're enjoying that aspect of it. Does it matter what you knit? Does that make a difference? Like does it make a difference what the stitch pattern is or the colour or...?
Casey Bernard 08:37
I have a tendency to buy the same colour. I find that I've knit multiple things that look just like the other thing I knit.
Mia Hobbs 08:46
I find I have phases of that. Like at the moment I'd say I'm in a wine-red phase [laughs] probably influenced by the season, and then I have other times when I'm like "Oh, all of my projects are teal! I've just bought more yarn in that colour!" [Laughs] Does it go in phases like that? Or is it like overall you tend to knit one colour more than others.
Casey Bernard 09:10
I tend to do purples and greens and then I'll be like "I am not buying more purple yarn!" I really like black, but black is so hard to knit with because it's hard to see. I'm working on a sweater right now that's like a grey marl, like a... it's not variegated, it's kind of a mixed black and grey. So I've been trying to expand but this last year or so I've been trying really hard not to buy yarn because I have so much. I've bought so much yarn or I've received yarn as a gift and I'm just so behind in my production this year. [Laughs] I don't want to buy any more.
Mia Hobbs 09:46
And the stitch pattern? Does that make a difference?
Casey Bernard 09:49
I like to mix it up. I like to do some colourwork or I like to do some lace. Staci actually last Christmas bought me a sweater pattern, and the yarn for it, that's got a little bit of textured stitch pattern, and then it's got some colourwork in it. So it's kind of like a mixture of both. But sometimes, I like to just sit and knit stockinette. I really don't like garter stitch. It doesn't matter, necessarily. I will probably not take on a super complicated lace pattern anytime, if I know that I don't have the time to focus on it.
Mia Hobbs 10:28
Sure. Do you have different projects for different occasions? Like if you're sitting waiting for a kid to do sports or...
Casey Bernard 10:38
Yeah, I usually have a pair of socks that... I don't really like patterned socks. I like this self-striping yarn. I've knit a couple pairs of socks that have like the lace pattern in it and I don't really enjoy that. I like my socks to be simple. And I even really have gotten to where I only want to do one kind of heel and toe. So I usually have a simple thing like a sock that I can just like carry around that's small. Or just get that done when I don't have focus but I do want to knit something that I just need to get a row in. And then I'll usually have something that's got a little more something to it. More pattern to it. But yeah, I usually have at least four projects going on, and one may sit for months before I pick it up again.
Mia Hobbs 11:21
You said you gravitate towards the same colours. I suppose that I have times that I think, "Oh, I want to knit some bright colour" because I feel like it gives me a little boost to my mood that day or something. Does it make a difference when you're working on it? Or are you thinking more about, "No, I want to WEAR that purple sweater" or whatever it is.
Casey Bernard 11:40
Yeah, so I have this sweater that I'm working on. It's like a navy blue base and it has a bright gold and then magenta colour pattern. And when I'm knitting that I'm like, "Oh, I love these colours so much." And it does make me want to work with it a little bit more. And you get excited! Like I love the self-striping yarns. The colour changes and so it gets kind of exciting to switch to the other colour.
Mia Hobbs 12:03
Yeah. So that keeps your interest going. Is knitting ever unhelpful for your mental health?
Casey Bernard 12:10
Sometimes, when I feel like I have too many projects going on and I feel a sense of dread... not dread, but I feel like it's just another thing on my list. Like right now I've been trying to make some hats using a little knitting machine. My friend has a shop here in town and she asked me to make a few hats. And it was enjoyable, but at the same time it felt like a chore. I would never want to do it for a job. I would never try to sell my stuff because I don't enjoy that feeling of having to get it done.
Mia Hobbs 12:42
So were they like shop samples?
Casey Bernard 12:44
No, I just made like six or eight little hats that you can make on the little crank machine.
Mia Hobbs 12:52
Yeah. So then it felt like pressure.
Casey Bernard 12:54
Yeah. Or, you know, I made a hat for a friend that we went to dinner with the other day and the dog ate it. [Laughs]
Mia Hobbs 13:03
Your dog?
Casey Bernard 13:04
Yeah, right before we left.
Mia Hobbs 13:06
Oh no!
Casey Bernard 13:07
He just like grabbed it and pulled on it, and so it kind of ruined it. When you're making something for somebody as a gift for a specific day, it was just like that kind of same feeling.
Mia Hobbs 13:19
Yeah, sure. I'm not great with deadline knitting. I think I couldn't also do it as a job. I think it would reduce the enjoyment, and it wouldn't be relaxing. Are you gifting a lot of the things you make, or mainly for yourself?
Casey Bernard 13:39
No. I mean, sometimes I'll knit something and maybe the socks come out a little too big, and I'll give them to a friend. Or while I'm knitting this hat that I'm working on that's taking forever, I'm thinking about giving it to a friend, just because I have a lot of hats and I thought she might like a hat. I've knit for my husband, I'll knit for my kids. My son wants a scarf so I'm going to use my machine to make him a scarf.
Mia Hobbs 14:08
So they're still good recipients of knitted gifts?
Casey Bernard 14:11
Yeah, they recognise the need for it!
Mia Hobbs 14:13
Oh yeah, now that you're living somewhere cold! Okay. I wonder, Casey, if you could tell me about a significant knitting project.
Casey Bernard 14:23
Significant in what way?
Mia Hobbs 14:25
Any way. Some people have spoken about something they were knitting at a specific time in their life, or it could be when you mastered some certain skill, or it could be the first thing you ever made, or a complete disaster. It could be anything!
Casey Bernard 14:45
Well, I think about this sweater that I made. I bought this mohair yarn (this is when I was a new knitter), beautiful mohair yarn, and there was a pattern in interweave knit. And I didn't really (obviously) understand gauge. So I had like an extra 12 inches of fabric on my sleeves. It was this pillowy, lovely thing and I worked so hard on it. It was huge. And I got everything right but yeah, it was gigantic. So it really was a lesson to me, how to do that properly.
Mia Hobbs 15:22
What became of it? Mohair's also horrendous to rip back, isn't it?
Casey Bernard 15:28
I know! I gave it to Goodwill, to the charity shops. So hopefully somebody found it and is loving it.
Mia Hobbs 15:36
Yeah. I'm sure they are.
Casey Bernard 15:38
Yeah. But I do think a lot about... I had this purse that I made that was pretty intricate intarsia, and then it was felted, and I just really love it. I forget about it every once in a while and then I'll find it. And I'm like, "This is gorgeous, a gorgeous design". It's got a big flower on it. So I just remember that was a complicated piece, and I stuck with it and made a nice little thing out of it.
Mia Hobbs 16:05
And you still have it?
Casey Bernard 16:07
Mm-hmm.
Mia Hobbs 16:07
Did you make it a while ago?
Casey Bernard 16:08
Oh, yeah. It's been probably 10+ years.
Mia Hobbs 16:12
That's great. I also normally ask about a knitting high and a knitting low. They could be events; they don't have to be projects.
Casey Bernard 16:25
A knitting low is when I've worked so hard on something and then it comes out and it doesn't fit right or doesn't look the way you wanted it to look. But a high... last year I finished a sweater that's got this rainbow variegated yarn, and it's a super basic sweater. It's just a pullover, but it's like a sweatshirt: cosy. It makes me happy every time I put it on. I purposely knit it knowing that in the dark winter days here, I would be like, "I need some happy rainbow in my life". [Laughs] So this rainbow sweater... it's cosy and every time I put it on, I'm like "I need to make another sweater like this because it's so comfortable."
Mia Hobbs 17:15
Is it quite a thick yarn?
Casey Bernard 17:17
No it's DK. It's really soft. It fits me perfectly, and it just fit the bill, you know?
Mia Hobbs 17:27
So that's something that makes you feel happy when you put it on?
Casey Bernard 17:30
Yeah, for sure.
Mia Hobbs 17:32
And with the lows, are you someone who will rip back if it's not looking how you want it to?
Casey Bernard 17:37
Yeah, for sure. And there's been many projects that I've ripped back and then just given up on, and put the yarn away and can't figure out what to do with it.
Mia Hobbs 17:48
Put it in the naughty corner!
Casey Bernard 17:49
Yeah, for sure.
Mia Hobbs 17:51
But do you feel like that gets any easier over time?
Casey Bernard 17:54
Yeah, especially when you're a project knitter like me, and I was a younger knitter, I hated to rip stuff back, and I would just deal with the mistake. But now I recognise, no, you want to have that thing look good and you want it to look right. It makes such a difference. I'm thinking about a tank top that I made. The whole back was lace and it was with a thick yarn so it didn't take forever, but I must have pulled that thing apart like three or four times. And I was so frustrated when I was doing it, but I'm glad that I did because the final product is perfect!
Mia Hobbs 18:38
I suppose I feel like I've got more tolerant of ripping back, the longer I've been knitting. I've accepted now that that's just part of... like all knitters make mistakes, that's just how it goes. And sometimes I'll rip stuff back, especially maybe at the beginning of a project, trying to get something right. But I often think if I was cast on a desert island with one ball of yarn, and I didn't need it to catch fish to eat or something, I would still knit, even if I had so little I couldn't make a thing. I don't know whether you would?
Casey Bernard 19:15
Yeah, for sure. I would probably start finding ways to turn palm tree leaves into yarn or something like that. [Laughs]
Mia Hobbs 19:24
Very resourceful.
Casey Bernard 19:26
Well, I learned how to do basket weaving a couple months ago, so now I see, "I could make baskets out of that!" But basket weaving and knitting... there's a lot of similarities! You have fibre and you're weaving. But finding fibre in different kinds of plants... yeah, I would totally do that. [Laughs] Weaving and taking the strings out of coconuts and turning it into yarn.
Mia Hobbs 19:53
I didn't even think about all of these things! [Laughs] I think I feel like I'm more tolerant of ripping back, and that maybe I've become more process-focused in other areas of my life. I don't know what you think... whether there's been any overspill from knitting?
Casey Bernard 20:10
Yeah. Like I said, I'm a project-based person anyway, but I've got a lot more patience with myself. And like, a hat that I'm working on that should not take this long, is taking me a couple months... it's like, whatever. There's no deadline. I'll always have something going on. Although my husband... I'm working on a sweater for him and I have put it away and have not picked it up again, and he's like, "Where's my sweater?!"
Mia Hobbs 20:36
Okay. But I guess at least he's keen for the end product, which is also a good thing.
Casey Bernard 20:41
Yeah. It's one of those big oversized cardigans. The Big Lebowski sweater.
Mia Hobbs 20:51
Oh, yeah. I guess that is probably one of the bigger things to knit, isn't it? An oversized man's sweater? That's a not insignificant project.
Casey Bernard 21:01
Yeah. And the yarn is just not super forgiving. So I think I put it away mostly because there's a pattern to it, and it was getting warmer, and I didn't want this giant thing in my lap. I just haven't had the time. Like I said, I haven't really had a lot of time and energy to knit. My kids have to get to school earlier here than they used to in Texas, and normally I would stay up late at night and I just can't do that because I have to get up so early here. So I'm really tired! It's messing up my circadian rhythms and my knitting rhythm, staying up when everybody else is in bed.
Mia Hobbs 21:39
Do you need an easier project for times like that? Reading a pattern, if you're tired, it's just too much and you need something...
Casey Bernard 21:49
Yeah.
Mia Hobbs 21:50
Sure. I guess getting back into it is probably a challenge in itself, finding where you were in the pattern.
Casey Bernard 21:56
Yeah, for sure.
Mia Hobbs 21:57
Okay. Casey, I always end with asking what's the biggest gift knitting has given you for the rest of your life?
Casey Bernard 22:04
That's a good question. I mean, if I'm stuck on a desert island, I can make clothes.
Mia Hobbs 22:09
[Laughs] Yes! You won't be naked; you've made a bikini before.
Casey Bernard 22:13
That's right! I'm going to pull those coconut strands and make some yarn. No, I just feel like it's always an opportunity to make something for someone or, you know, have that... I kind of feel sorry for people who don't have a hobby like knitting, and they don't have a thing that they can claim to be their own; that they'll just spend all their days watching Netflix or whatever. It just feels like I have this special talent and special magic, that I can turn something into something.
Mia Hobbs 22:50
Okay. So for you, it's about the magic of the creative process or the crafting process, that you've got this special skill that you can make something like that.
Casey Bernard 23:03
Even in times when I'm not knitting a lot, I will always know how to knit. And I will always be able to help somebody learn how to knit. I can't imagine not creating something all the time.
Mia Hobbs 23:15
So it sounds like even before you found knitting you were a person who was making things with your hands or doing things like crafting, I suppose.
Casey Bernard 23:22
Right. Like I have my little macrame here.
Mia Hobbs 23:24
Yeah, they're amazing! So have you got other hobbies on the go, as well as knitting, like that kind of thing still? Or do you think knitting has kind of superseded the others?
Casey Bernard 23:34
Yeah, knitting is the thing because I can pick it up and put it down, I can travel with it. Like I said, I started with cross stitch, and I didn't like that I had to get all the strings out and figure out what colour I was on, and I felt like it just was... Anything that takes too much setup time, like sewing to me takes up too much setup time. I like to have something that I can just stand there, knit a row, get it done, get a little creative energy out and move on.
Mia Hobbs 24:02
I think that's a really common thing, in the conversations I've had, certainly. When I was talking to Betsan Corkhill who talks about therapeutic knitting, about why it's so helpful, it's that it's very accessible. I think a lot of people return to it after having kids. So having small children and needing to do something for themselves. I think that's a common story. And you can just do... you know, when a baby sleeps you never quite know how long that's going to be for! [Laughs] You could do one row or you could end up doing a couple of inches of something or other.
Casey Bernard 24:35
Yeah. And I love it for aeroplane travel and all those times when you're just sitting and waiting. There's a lot of times when I've been like, "Oh, I don't have a pair of socks going and I'm sitting here at the doctor's office. What am I doing?!"
Mia Hobbs 24:48
I once had to wait some really long waiting times for some appointments for my eye. I was there for three hours and everyone else in the waiting room's phone battery had died hours ago and I'd been doing... I don't love just stockinette, generally. I quite like... Like with a yoked sweater, I'm super interested in the colourwork yoke, and then it gets to the inches and inches of just knitting in the round, and I get a bit bored really? So for my knitting in the evening, watching TV, that generally isn't enough to sustain my attention. But it was great for sitting in a waiting room in a hospital, because then I felt like I'd achieved three inches of a sleeve. Whereas everybody else was sitting there by the end, just watching my hands move. [Laughs]
Casey Bernard 25:34
Yeah, for sure.
Mia Hobbs 25:36
And I suppose for me, I think my feeling of the superpower is slightly different. It's more that I have this hobby I can whip out at any point that makes me feel calmer and gives me a sense of purpose. And that's the way I feel the superpower, rather than turning something into... using sticks and a ball of string or coconut fibre or whatever you're using to make something. [Laughs]
Casey Bernard 25:59
Yeah. And it's so much better than scrolling on your phone, for sure, in a waiting room.
Mia Hobbs 26:05
Do you feel like it makes you feel different from scrolling on your phone?
Casey Bernard 26:08
Oh yeah! Scrolling just makes you more anxious and more frustrated, or feeling like you need to buy something or all those different feelings you have. Knitting - it's a sense of accomplishment. Sometimes it's frustrating, but it's a totally different feeling.
Mia Hobbs 26:28
Mm. I was interested in something you said earlier about the idea that it gives your mind a chance to think about other things, or almost like process things while you're doing it.
Casey Bernard 26:41
Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's like meditation in some ways, especially if you're on a long stockinette thing, and you don't really have to think about what you're knitting. Just to be able to do that. You can be working on other things in your head.
Mia Hobbs 26:57
Yeah. Do you think you're deliberately doing that, or do you think that's just what happens?
Casey Bernard 27:01
Well, I think that my brain is going all the time. [Laughs] It just happens that knitting is giving me something to work on while it's running in the background.
Mia Hobbs 27:13
Do you think that's why you find knitting an easier way to access calm than traditional meditation, because you are someone with quite a busy brain?
Casey Bernard 27:22
Yeah, I think so.
Mia Hobbs 27:23
Yeah, I think that's true for me.
Casey Bernard 27:25
Having your hands moving, you can see that sensory feedback too.
Mia Hobbs 27:33
Great. Well, Casey, it's been super interesting to talk to you. If anyone wants to find out more about your knitting, or follow you on Instagram, or the podcast, how would they find out about those things?
Casey Bernard 27:46
My Instagram is @kc.knits - that's where I'm more active, although lately I've been kind of taking a little bit of a break. I have a website, www.kcknits.com - it's the letter K and the letter C, even though that's not how you spell my name [laughs]. And then our podcast is the VeryPink Knits podcast. You can get it on any podcast app. And we're on Patreon. We have extra episodes for our Patreon subscribers only. And VeryPink Knits is Staci Perry's YouTube channel for all the tutorials and knitting lessons you need.
Mia Hobbs 28:23
The podcast is a Q&A about knitting-related dilemmas. Thank you for your public service. [Laughs] Okay, great. Thank you so much, Casey!
Casey Bernard 28:37
Sure! Thanks for having me.
Mia Hobbs 28:43
Thank you so much for listening to the Why I Knit podcast. If you'd like to find out more about therapeutic knitting, you can follow me on Instagram at @knittingistherapeutic, or at my website www.therapeuticknitting.org. If you're enjoying the podcast, I would really appreciate it if you could leave a rating and a review on your podcast app. This will help grow the podcast and let more people know about the therapeutic benefits of knitting. And don't forget to subscribe too. Thank you!
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